Isaiah 2:10-22
On multiple occasions, I have read supporters of Eternal Conscious Torment refer to Isaiah 2:10-22, claiming that this passage bolsters their argument that Paul intended to express the notion of eternal separation from God. This is a very weak argument. In fact, referring to Isaiah 2:10-22 strengthens the case that Paul expect unbelievers to be annihilated on the day of judgment.
Here is the passage in question:
In the passage above, I’ve underlined one phrase that appears three different times. That phrase is the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty. This phrase is very similar to the one Paul uses in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. In fact, I suspect most scholars agree that Paul used his phrase specifically to allude to this passage in Isaiah.
This is the essence of the argument I’ve read in reference to the above passage:
I can list three distinct reasons why this is a weak argument:
Expressing the Notion of Separation
As I’ve already detailed above, the Greek word APO (from) does not express the notion of separation on its own. I listed 104 examples in Paul’s writing where he used the word APO, and not once did he use it to express the notion of separation on its own. That’s just not the way APO works.
In this Isaiah passage, we clearly have the notion that these proud men will try to separate themselves from God’s presence. They are mortally terrified of falling into his hands, so they do all they can to hide themselves and escape his presence. The way this notion of separation is express can be seen in these three sentences:
In each case, it is the verb that clearly expresses the notion of separation, not the existence of the word APO (from) in the passage. It is silly to use these sentences to support the notion that APO can express separation on its own.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, there is absolutely no verb expressing separation, nor anything else in the context that expresses a notion of separation. APO absolutely does not express separation in that verse.
Fleeing from Judgment
Clearly, this passage is describing a scenario when the Lord comes down in judgment. The images described concentrate on the majesty and terror of the Lord during this approach, and the utter fear of those who will be subject to his judgment.
However, this passage ends before we find out what happens. Essentially all this passage says is that God will approach and men will try to hide. The ultimate result is left for a later resolution.
Paul starts out in very similar manner, when he says this:
Unlike Isaiah, however, Paul does not leave it there. He goes to the end of the story, and clearly tells us what will happen to these proud men once they are apprehended:
They will suffer a destruction that will never be reversed.
The supporters of eternal torment seem to assert that these passages are describing the same elements of the final judgment. To hear them tell it, the final day of judgment will be similar to God’s entrance into a room infested with cockroaches. He will flip on the great glory of his eternal light and then watch with glee as unbelievers scurry away into whatever crevices they might find in God’s great thrown room. And then, God will be content to just let them spend eternity in those hiding place, while he proceeds to party with his elect.
Obviously, I’m being a little silly with my illustration, but it’s not far from the truth of what some seem to be claiming. Isaiah describes men who find caves and holes where they try to hide from God. At the final judgment day, no hiding place will be available to them, and they will be subject to the full fury of God’s wrath – his consuming fire. The fact that would wish to hide from God tells us nothing about what their fate will actually be.
Exclusion from Paradise
The passage above offers evidence that the presence of God is sometimes expressed as a fearful and terrible thing. However, other passages in Scripture clearly express the presence of God as very desirable - a beautiful, comforting and gentle thing. These expressions are not contradictory, but express the complex fullness of God, which includes both his holiness and his love. Here are just a few examples of scriptures which express the positive elements of God’s character, and I’ve underlined those nouns which apply to God :
The NASB version of II Thessalonians implies the positive elements of God. We know this because we are told that the unbelievers will be forced to spend eternity away from this presence. They will be forced to spend eternity away from the presence of God.
If Paul had intended to express the positive elements of God’s presence, we would expect him to make use of these same types of words. These words express those positive elements of God which stir desire in those that hear it and which would be withheld from a person that was separated from his presence.
What words did Paul use in II Thessalonians?
These words don't sound much like the words in those passages which express those most desirable elements of Gods' nature. In using the word ‘power’, Paul seems generally to be concentrating on God’s ability to act. His power might conceivably be considered something to be desired, but it is far more frequently used in Scripture as something to be feared.
Clearly, this passage is not intending to express the warm, beautiful and loving elements of God. If Paul were intending to express those elements of God’s character which unbelievers would be excluded from, it is almost inconceivable that Paul would choose to reference this Isaiah passage to express those desirable elements of God.
Conversely, it is very likely that Paul would reference this passage to express the consuming fire that is God, and to express the terrible judgment that he will inflict upon unbelievers at the final judgment. The Isaiah passage fits perfectly with Paul’s expression of God’s presence as one of fiery judgment, but would make no sense at all in a passage where Paul was trying to express the unimaginably beautiful and desirable presence that unbelievers will be excluded from.
I want to make this very clear with an illustration. Assume I have an 11-year old son. Assume also that the most wondrous and magical place that he can imagine is Disney World. I once thought something close to that.
Now, assume also that I want to motivate my son to act with wisdom and justice. As part of that motivation, I offer to take him to Disney World if he behaves well. Conversely, I warn him that he might be excluded from Disney World if he misbehaves.
In this analogy, I want to use Disney World as an analogy to the paradise that we are offered as believers in Christ. (I would never want to imply that we make it to heaven based upon our good works, but do want to set up an illustration where person might be excluded from the most wonderful place he can imagine.)
Now, I want to add one more element to this illustration. If I do a search on the phrase “tragedies at Disney World”, I can find several examples of tragedies that occurred at Disney World. (This is not intended to impugn their record of safety - no amount of effort would be enough to avoid all tragedies.) Sadly, one actual event is that an 11-year old boy child was killed after being a struck by a bus at one of the resorts.
Given that setup, imagine I said this to my son:
Obviously, that’s an absurd way to motivate my child. If I were truly wanting to emphasize the possibility of his being excluded from Disney World, the last thing I would do would be to mention a terrible thing that happened there.
What I would say is something like similar to one of these statements:
Isn’t that clear?
If Paul wanted to emphasize the tragedy of being excluded from God’s presence, it is totally illogical for him to allude to an Old Testament passage where God is depicted as a fearful and terror-inducing agent of judgment. It would be far more likely for Paul to reference a passage clearly demonstrating God’s beauty and grace and any of his utterly desirable qualities. Then, a statement that unbelievers will be separated from that presence would have a greater impact.
Without doubt, the reason Paul alluded to Isaiah 2 was to reference how terrible it is to fall into the hands of the living God. It is a totally indefensible position to claim that Isaiah’s illustration of proud men fleeing from God is in any way representative of what their ultimate fate will be at the judgment day.
Here is the passage in question:
- Isa 2:10-20 Enter the rock and hide in the dust from the terror of the LORD and from the splendor of His majesty. The proud look of man will be abased And the loftiness of man will be humbled, And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. For the LORD of hosts will have a day of reckoning Against everyone who is proud and lofty And against everyone who is lifted up, That he may be abased. And it will be against all the cedars of Lebanon that are lofty and lifted up, Against all the oaks of Bashan, Against all the lofty mountains, Against all the hills that are lifted up, Against every high tower, Against every fortified wall, Against all the ships of Tarshish And against all the beautiful craft. The pride of man will be humbled And the loftiness of men will be abased; And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day, But the idols will completely vanish. Men will go into caves of the rocks And into holes of the ground Before the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty, When He arises to make the earth tremble. In that day men will cast away to the moles and the bats Their idols of silver and their idols of gold, Which they made for themselves to worship, In order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs Before the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty, When He arises to make the earth tremble.
In the passage above, I’ve underlined one phrase that appears three different times. That phrase is the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty. This phrase is very similar to the one Paul uses in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. In fact, I suspect most scholars agree that Paul used his phrase specifically to allude to this passage in Isaiah.
This is the essence of the argument I’ve read in reference to the above passage:
- Since the passage above expresses clearly that men try to separate themselves from God’s presence, we must conclude that Paul was also expressing the notion of separation from God’s presence in 2 Thessalonians 1:9
I can list three distinct reasons why this is a weak argument:
- The passage above expresses separation through the use of the verbs “hide” and “go into”. The Greek preposition APO does not express separation on its own, which is the case we have in 2 Thessalonians 1:9
- The scenario described in the passage above is one where evil men are fleeing the justice of God, prior to them being apprehended. This passage says nothing about what will happen to them once they are apprehended and brought to judgment
- The passage above clearly expresses the image of a fearful and terror-inducing God. It is absurd to propose that Paul would use this passage to represent the beauty and joy that unbelievers will be excluded from at the judgment day.
Expressing the Notion of Separation
As I’ve already detailed above, the Greek word APO (from) does not express the notion of separation on its own. I listed 104 examples in Paul’s writing where he used the word APO, and not once did he use it to express the notion of separation on its own. That’s just not the way APO works.
In this Isaiah passage, we clearly have the notion that these proud men will try to separate themselves from God’s presence. They are mortally terrified of falling into his hands, so they do all they can to hide themselves and escape his presence. The way this notion of separation is express can be seen in these three sentences:
- Enter the rock and hide in the dust from the terror of the LORD and from the splendor of His majesty
- Men will go into caves of the rocks and into holes of the ground Before the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty
- In order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs Before the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty
In each case, it is the verb that clearly expresses the notion of separation, not the existence of the word APO (from) in the passage. It is silly to use these sentences to support the notion that APO can express separation on its own.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, there is absolutely no verb expressing separation, nor anything else in the context that expresses a notion of separation. APO absolutely does not express separation in that verse.
Fleeing from Judgment
Clearly, this passage is describing a scenario when the Lord comes down in judgment. The images described concentrate on the majesty and terror of the Lord during this approach, and the utter fear of those who will be subject to his judgment.
However, this passage ends before we find out what happens. Essentially all this passage says is that God will approach and men will try to hide. The ultimate result is left for a later resolution.
Paul starts out in very similar manner, when he says this:
- 2Th 1:8-9 …the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Unlike Isaiah, however, Paul does not leave it there. He goes to the end of the story, and clearly tells us what will happen to these proud men once they are apprehended:
- 2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction ... from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
(Note: The ellipsis represents my removal of the word "away" from this NASB translation)
They will suffer a destruction that will never be reversed.
The supporters of eternal torment seem to assert that these passages are describing the same elements of the final judgment. To hear them tell it, the final day of judgment will be similar to God’s entrance into a room infested with cockroaches. He will flip on the great glory of his eternal light and then watch with glee as unbelievers scurry away into whatever crevices they might find in God’s great thrown room. And then, God will be content to just let them spend eternity in those hiding place, while he proceeds to party with his elect.
Obviously, I’m being a little silly with my illustration, but it’s not far from the truth of what some seem to be claiming. Isaiah describes men who find caves and holes where they try to hide from God. At the final judgment day, no hiding place will be available to them, and they will be subject to the full fury of God’s wrath – his consuming fire. The fact that would wish to hide from God tells us nothing about what their fate will actually be.
Exclusion from Paradise
The passage above offers evidence that the presence of God is sometimes expressed as a fearful and terrible thing. However, other passages in Scripture clearly express the presence of God as very desirable - a beautiful, comforting and gentle thing. These expressions are not contradictory, but express the complex fullness of God, which includes both his holiness and his love. Here are just a few examples of scriptures which express the positive elements of God’s character, and I’ve underlined those nouns which apply to God :
- Psa_36:7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
- Psa_27:4 One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple.
- Isa 63:7-9 I shall make mention of the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has granted us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has granted them according to His compassion And according to the abundance of His lovingkindnesses. For He said, "Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely." So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
- Act 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
The NASB version of II Thessalonians implies the positive elements of God. We know this because we are told that the unbelievers will be forced to spend eternity away from this presence. They will be forced to spend eternity away from the presence of God.
If Paul had intended to express the positive elements of God’s presence, we would expect him to make use of these same types of words. These words express those positive elements of God which stir desire in those that hear it and which would be withheld from a person that was separated from his presence.
What words did Paul use in II Thessalonians?
- revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution…
- …the glory of His power
These words don't sound much like the words in those passages which express those most desirable elements of Gods' nature. In using the word ‘power’, Paul seems generally to be concentrating on God’s ability to act. His power might conceivably be considered something to be desired, but it is far more frequently used in Scripture as something to be feared.
Clearly, this passage is not intending to express the warm, beautiful and loving elements of God. If Paul were intending to express those elements of God’s character which unbelievers would be excluded from, it is almost inconceivable that Paul would choose to reference this Isaiah passage to express those desirable elements of God.
Conversely, it is very likely that Paul would reference this passage to express the consuming fire that is God, and to express the terrible judgment that he will inflict upon unbelievers at the final judgment. The Isaiah passage fits perfectly with Paul’s expression of God’s presence as one of fiery judgment, but would make no sense at all in a passage where Paul was trying to express the unimaginably beautiful and desirable presence that unbelievers will be excluded from.
I want to make this very clear with an illustration. Assume I have an 11-year old son. Assume also that the most wondrous and magical place that he can imagine is Disney World. I once thought something close to that.
Now, assume also that I want to motivate my son to act with wisdom and justice. As part of that motivation, I offer to take him to Disney World if he behaves well. Conversely, I warn him that he might be excluded from Disney World if he misbehaves.
In this analogy, I want to use Disney World as an analogy to the paradise that we are offered as believers in Christ. (I would never want to imply that we make it to heaven based upon our good works, but do want to set up an illustration where person might be excluded from the most wonderful place he can imagine.)
Now, I want to add one more element to this illustration. If I do a search on the phrase “tragedies at Disney World”, I can find several examples of tragedies that occurred at Disney World. (This is not intended to impugn their record of safety - no amount of effort would be enough to avoid all tragedies.) Sadly, one actual event is that an 11-year old boy child was killed after being a struck by a bus at one of the resorts.
Given that setup, imagine I said this to my son:
- If you don’t behave, you’ll never get to go to Disney World, where that boy was struck and killed by a bus!
Obviously, that’s an absurd way to motivate my child. If I were truly wanting to emphasize the possibility of his being excluded from Disney World, the last thing I would do would be to mention a terrible thing that happened there.
What I would say is something like similar to one of these statements:
- …where Dreams Come True
- …where all of your friends went
- …where you get to ride on Space Mountain
Isn’t that clear?
If Paul wanted to emphasize the tragedy of being excluded from God’s presence, it is totally illogical for him to allude to an Old Testament passage where God is depicted as a fearful and terror-inducing agent of judgment. It would be far more likely for Paul to reference a passage clearly demonstrating God’s beauty and grace and any of his utterly desirable qualities. Then, a statement that unbelievers will be separated from that presence would have a greater impact.
Without doubt, the reason Paul alluded to Isaiah 2 was to reference how terrible it is to fall into the hands of the living God. It is a totally indefensible position to claim that Isaiah’s illustration of proud men fleeing from God is in any way representative of what their ultimate fate will be at the judgment day.